http://www.lhnet.org/home/ http://www.lhnet.org/experts-legislation/#PageComment_71 Most urgent measures to strengthen legal protection of large herbivores and ecosystems, include effected in internationally standardised form: - development of a theory of the sources of inter-eco-law (international environmental law) with specific attention to alive nature and public participation; - creation and maintenance of the register of publications; - consolidation of environmental provisions of constitutions; - legal improvement of an access to environmental information; - development of a model enactment on ecotourism; and other. Their implementation is grounded by the need to provide compliance with the international environmental law and share most advanced experience between the countries and other actors. Legal protection of ecosystems is weakened because the break of the ecosystem approach is not a certain offence itself. Such kinds of harm to the environment as degradation and destruction of natural ecosystems are incomparably much more complicated to be evincible than taking the components of natural environment (incl. wildlife) out of the environment, for instance (Glossary and commentary to certain terms and concepts, used in international environmental co-operation: legal aspects / Moscow Initiative on International Environmental Law Development ; [foreword by Yu. E. Vinokurov]. – M.: MIeLD, 2011. – 245 p. ISBN 978-5-9902712-1-0). We share opinion of those who do not believe in the so called concept of ecosystem services which contradicts to the right of common nature management belonging to everyone. With our birth we start to breath, when grow-up we use land resources, taking a rest we go to a nature and enjoy its beauty. There are rules related to everyone and corresponding to natural rights, they reflect rather widespread relations. You cannot control everyone. Major impact on the environment is caused by the legal persons. Their activity may be regulated and controlled. Legislation is a tool which is used to discover and fix most repeated general rules. Laws and by-laws are very rarely adopted on specific objects. They concern particular relations, treatment of the environment by definite wide groups of users. The rest work is done by local regulations, provisions of legal persons, which have strictly limited legal importance in space and time. Facts have legal importance. We have left to gather and make use of them. Fri, 05 Aug 2011 14:00:18 +0200 Eugene A. Wystorobets http://www.lhnet.org/experts-legislation/#PageComment_71 http://www.lhnet.org/konik-horse/#PageComment_55 Regarding the discussion about to feralize or to dedomesticate; a species can regain genetic diversity. Regarding the stimuli from factors like climate, vegetation, predation, population sizes, etcetera, each animal will respond in a different way on a genetical level. Genetic mutations occur and will be divers. Also, if the circumstances liike climate and vegetation are the same as they used to be, you will see genetic mutations that in probability will follow the same paths. Selection under natural circumstances is far more diverse than human selection on certain traits and that diversity will show in the mutations that will occur. For instance in the Oostvaardersplassen it has been observed that zebra stripes started to show in the Konik population after some time and generations. What triggers this is not actually known, but in my opinion it is a good example of 'dedomestication'. It is important to see 'dedomestication' not as according to structured human demands, but a nature structured/driven process that seems random to us, but actually is not Also, the mutations in mitochondrial DNA will ofcourse not be the same as in the original species, but fortunally we are after mutations in nuclear DNA where all the actual characteristics of an animal are coded.. Henri Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:24:26 +0200 Henri Kerkdijk http://www.lhnet.org/konik-horse/#PageComment_55 http://www.lhnet.org/asiatic-wild-ass/#PageComment_54 According to (ancient) mitochondrial DNA research carried out by Cooper et al (2006, 2009), the European wild ass (Equus Hydruntinus) clusters within ancient and modern day Equus Hemionus. Multiple studies reveal that the European wild ass survived well into historical times and was also accustomed to colder and wetter climates and vegetation. These two conclusion together could mean that Equus Hemionus (of the right climate and vegetation zones) is actually a legal candidate for reintroduction into European habitats. Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:01:18 +0200 Henri Kerkdijk http://www.lhnet.org/asiatic-wild-ass/#PageComment_54 http://www.lhnet.org/konik-horse/#PageComment_53 I am very curious what DNA research confirmed that the Konik is directly related to the Tarpan. Furthermore, there is very little known about the original tarpan. Most (there are very few) sources describe a steppe animal in the Ukraine and Russia and not a forest animal, like the habitat of the Koniks in Poland. Furthermore, a breeding program based on phenotypical features doesn't say anything about genotype, certain behavioral traits, etcetera. After 130 years of mixing a few Tarpans with polish farmer horses, the original tarpans genes had been diluted and afterwards they only selected on physical traits based on a few historical sources describing an animal from the steppes of the Ukraine and Russia. In my opinion it is highly debatable that the Konik is a direct descendant of the Polish subvariety of the Tarpan or not. Any direct link should be substantiated with clear scientific (i.e. genetic) studies. Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:57:22 +0200 Henri Kerkdijk http://www.lhnet.org/konik-horse/#PageComment_53 http://www.lhnet.org/bukhara-deer/#PageComment_48 Maps /Further map information Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:11:07 +0200 Olga Pereladova http://www.lhnet.org/bukhara-deer/#PageComment_48 http://www.lhnet.org/fallow-deer/#PageComment_44 Dr. Alan McElligott, School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, Queen Mary University of London asked us by e-mail: One of my work colleagues here (Fanis Missirlis) is Greek and he discovered a Greek researcher involved in work on fallow deer on Rhodes (Anastasios Legakis). I wrote to Dr. Lagakis, but did not receive a reply. THE QUESTION: I have worked on the behavioural ecology of fallow deer for quite a few years. My publications are listed here - http://sites.google.com/site/alanmcelligott/publications Let me know if you would like pdf copies of any papers. The numbers 26 and 22 on this list are "open access". So, anyone could access them from anywhere. They are fallow deer behavioural biology papers rather than conservation ones. I recently became concerned about the fallow deer on Rhodes, because I heard that they are perhaps threatened with extinction. They seem to represent an extremely important genetic group for fallow deer, so this would be a great shame if it happened. I am really happy to know that there is ongoing research on these animals. Are the animals deer living all over Rhodes or in some parks? Tue, 13 Jul 2010 11:32:49 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.lhnet.org/fallow-deer/#PageComment_44 http://www.lhnet.org/fallow-deer/#PageComment_43 ==================== Roland Wirtz wrote by e-mail: Hi Wolfgang, just back from the EAZA Conservation Forum, where Hans Kampf, Executive Director of the Large Herbivore Foundation ( see www.largeherbivore.org) Simon Stuart and I talked about the last pure fallow deer in Turkey and Rhodes. Simon Stuart, by the way, is fully aware of the fallow deer problem and it is also mentioned on the Red list site (see entry for Fallow deer at www.iuncredlist.org) - in fact Simon started to raise the issue with Hans. Hans is keen to communicate to you about this. Hans wants to start some efforts for the Fallow deer. =========================================== Hans Kampf reflected: dear Wolfgang and Ronald Thank you very much for the good talk we have had. I am also very worried about the numbers of the pure fallow deer. I was mailed a couple of months ago by Alan McElligot: http://www.largeherbivore.org/person/show/amcelligott about the fallow deer at Rhodos. I am also looking forward to get contact with Emre Can again, since we have met each other in Turkey. Could you bring me again in contact with Emre? The website is developed in a way that everyone with a password can enter the interactive discussion. The website is an open source website, with WIKI-like possibilities. If you have comments or information or if you would like to start a discussion about a species or a landscape etc., please put your comments direct on the website, where the discussion should have to take place. We are still in a trial and error phase, but the subjects Wolfgang mentioned are very interesting to start with. I am very pleased to play the role of mediator. We have about 35 species in our region, I hope that the support network can be developed in such a way that we get interest groups for the important species, so that we get a more and more improved website community, with the most actual situation and clear needs what has to be done, besides a number of priority issues, such as E. bison in Europe. That would become the base for further (internal and external) communication and fundraising. ==================================== Roland Wirtz wrote by e-mail: Thank you, Hans, for following up on this right away. Wolfgang has the contact details for Emre Can, he wil lsurely provide these to you. You might perhaps consider, throuzh EAZA, to get in touch with the two leading zoos in Turkey and Greece (Attika Zoo near Athens and Bursa Zoo in Turkey) - these zoos might in some way or another perhaps be interested in assisting with conservation of the native Fallow deer in their countries. I don't know the people at theses zoos, but people at the EAZA office will undoubteldy be able to give you names. Koen Brouwer, former Director of the EAZA office and now based in Spain is, as far as I know , still doing consultancy work for Bursa zoo, hence he might be another contact (if you want, ask for Koen's mail address as well at the EAZA office). The problem really is that NOBODY really is aware of this conservation issue relating to the 'common' Fallow Deer, so lobbying even the "experts" (the people in zoos, conservation, sience) etc is important. ================================================================== Wolfgang wrote Emere Can: Dear Emre, Hans Kampf (ECNC, The Large Herbivores, Eurasian Support Network), Roland Wirth (Munich Zoological Society - ZGAP) and I are concerned about reports claiming that there are less than 40 individuals of the unique fallow deer left in Turkey. This is the only surviving autochthonous population of this species and an outstanding part of the natural heritage of your country and also of Europe as a whole. We are interested in supporting its recovery and therefore would be very obliged for any information about plans and activities of the appropriate authorities concerning this matter. The new issue of the journal of ZGAP will go to the printers by the end of this month. In order to draw attention to the subject in question it would be very helpful to include a note on the situation of the Turkish fallow deer and if possible also to add a picture. Any help you can provide us concerning this important conservation issue would be appreciatied. Thank you very much for your kind cooperation. ======================================== Roland Wirth mailed: Dear Hans and Simon, Wolfgang Frey already found out that: (a) The present stock of original Fallow Deer in Turkey is presently around 100 in the enclosure and an estimated 30 in the protected area nearby. The number is 30 is based on very poor date (could be less or more) (b) One stag of the semi-domestic stock, that exists across Europe was introduced to the population years ago (by local authorities, who obviously don't realize the genetic importance of their population). It is not certain though that this animal really bred and spread ist genes in the population. (b) In addition to poaching and poor population management the risk of further wll-meant but totally ill-guided population augmentation with semi-domestic Fallow Deer imported form wherever in Europe is seemingly a major risk and could happen anytime. Wolfgang is trying to find out more. Obviously the population on Rhodes Island is potentially very important (and if the stag introduced in Turkey years ago did breed, it might be the last pure population on the planet). Neither I nor Wolfgang have any contacts in Greece. Any suggesteion of people one cold contact to help with this in Greece (or who at least could giude us to people in Greece who might have an interest in this) ? Best wishes, Roland Simon N. Stuart PhD, Chair IUCN Species Survival Commission commented: ================================== Dear Roland, Many thanks for this. I find it impossible to imagine that, over the last 2,000 years, wild fallow deer in Turkey have not on occasion interbred with animals of domestic origin. So in that sense, probably no animals can be considered to be 100% representative of the original wild fallow deer in a genetic sense. So the semi-domestic stag we know about was probably only the latest in many such incidents going back to ancient times. I think we have to admit that the animals in Turkey are simply the closest thing we have to wild European Fallow Deer. The animals introduced to Rhodes, apparently in Neolithic times, represent the other significant population that might be genetically close to wild animals (though outside the natural range). The person who has really studied this issue in depth is Marco Messeti - marco.masseti@unifi.it. I see that a certain D. Mertzanidou contributed the Greek information to the Red List. I don't know this person, but I'm sure we could track down him/her if you wish. I have copied various people from the Deer SG here, because there is clearly a cloud over the current IUCN Red List status of this species (see http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/42188/0). Its current Red List status is Least Concern, and this can only be justified if we include animals in mainland southern Europe (supposedly in the natural range) as wild. I know that Marco was not happy with the assessment, and I wonder if the RL assessment should be based on the Turkish population alone. So over to the DSG on this one! Concerning the conservation of the animals in Turkey, you might want to contact Guven Eken, who runs Doga Dernegi, an important conservation NGO in Turkey. His email address is guven.eken@dogadernegi.org. I hope this helps, and all the best, Simon N. Stuart PhD, Chair IUCN Species Survival Commission ============================= Roland Wirth: Thank you, Simon. I have copied Marco Masseti as well now. Right, of course, previous interbreeding could have happened, but based on Masseti's data of a significant genetic uniqueness of the Turkish and Rhodes population, it would not seem to have had a major influence. I haven't seen any photos of these animals, but hear they also look somewhat different from the introduced populations across Europe. Taking, therefore, morphological and genetic date into consideration (and further accepting Helmut Hemmer's conclusion that many semi-captive or introduced populations show signs of beginning domestication) one could make a point of treating the populations on Rhodes and Turkey as different from the other populations as for example African wild asses from domestic donkeys (well, not quite as different, but clearly along the same route). If, the Deer Group (of which, incidentally, I am also still a member) therefore would adopt the separation of the Turkish/Rhodes population versus the rest based on the above arguments, we would immediately get a red list status of some level for the 'original' Fallow Deer - an important first step to draw wider attention to the conservation of the Rhodes/Turkish population. I am sure a press release on this 'surprise status' of a species considered very common by almost everybody might be picked up widely across Europe and perhaps catalyze action. What does everybody think ? Best wishes, Roland ================ Wed, 07 Jul 2010 14:38:35 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.lhnet.org/fallow-deer/#PageComment_43 http://www.lhnet.org/goitered-gazelle/#PageComment_42 In the chapter of population size and trend there are different sources with different population estimates of the same populations. Can anyone tell how large the populations at the moment actually are? Fri, 14 May 2010 07:48:59 +0200 Mirte Kruit http://www.lhnet.org/goitered-gazelle/#PageComment_42 http://www.lhnet.org/cattle-breeds/#PageComment_41 Waltraut Zimmerman sent a comemnt by e-mail: The same is with the cattle: Aurochs stands for Bos primigenius - the wild species. "Aurochs" could stand for the feral cattle (LHF has also Aurox in use). In Germany we decided on this on the VFA e.V. level last week and our foundation's name was changed from Verein zur Förderung der Auerochsenzucht in : Verein zur Förderung des "Auerochsen". Auerochse is the wild species. So, the quotation marks are important: without = wild, with = feral, domesticated. So, when you use Aurochs (without quotation marks) as synonym for the feral cattle, then this is wrong. Tue, 11 May 2010 11:18:40 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.lhnet.org/cattle-breeds/#PageComment_41 http://www.lhnet.org/horse/#PageComment_40 Waltraut Zimmerman commented by e-mail: To be clear, so that we correctly understand what we mean, I make the following proposal: Equus ferus gmelini is either the European Wild Horse or the Tarpan. The feral horses then can be named either Konik (which I prefer) or "Tarpan" in quotation marks. "Tarpan" is o.k. for me, however, I do not like it as much as the name Konik, as the European wild horse, also called Tarpan, most likely did not look like the breeds of today, as the reconstruction was done after the phenotype of the last caught individual, which turned out to be a domesticated horse, many years later after Nobis investigated it thoroughly. However, as this name is in use, I would not object as long as it is written with quotation marks. So, we would distinguish between Tarpan (wild) and "Tarpan" (domesticated). Tue, 11 May 2010 11:17:02 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.lhnet.org/horse/#PageComment_40